Episode 7 – Tony Crimi (National Building Codes Committee on Fire Protection) – Curtain Wall Conversations
June 29, 2023
In Episode 7 of Curtain Wall Conversations, Peter discusses the complex area of fire standards and codes with Tony Crimi. Tony serves as a member and past Chair of the National Building Code of Canada Standing Committee on Fire Protection and was also Chair of Ontario Building Code Conversation Advisory Council. Additionally, Tony is a distinguished member of the International Codes Council (ICC), National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), and more, for which his contributions have garnered him several notable awards.
If that weren’t enough, Tony is also the President of A.C. Consulting Solutions Inc. where he assists companies in navigating the regulatory landscape. He specializes in providing services related to building and fire protection codes and standards, including assisting clients in achieving successful testing and product approval and recognition from regulatory authorities, advocating for U.S. codes & standards changes, researching product and/or regulatory information, and facilitating product testing and evaluation.
It’s been a privilege for all of us on the GlasCurtain team to work with Tony over the last couple of years on the NFPA-285 certification for our new Thermaframe system, which we successfully completed in September 2022, and which opens the door for Thermaframe to be used on non-combustible buildings in the US market.
We had a great time chatting with Tony about his background and career trajectory, reflections on codes and standards developments, what exactly “combustibility” really means, innovation in curtain wall materials, future harmonization of fire standards, the difference between Canadian and American standards, the future of North American fire safety, and so much more!
Tony, welcome to Curtain Wall Conversations! We hope you enjoy this wide-ranging conversation as much as we did.
Watch this episode on YouTube!
Haven’t seen Episode 6 yet? Catch up now on our conversation with Al Jaugelis from Fenestration Canada where we explored optimism & opportunity in the glass industry, the past, present, and future of “combustibility” in Canada, provincial autonomy in Canada’s National Building Code, and so much more!
- Intro [0:00]
- Background and Career Trajectory [1:48]
- Reflections on Codes and Standards Developments [3:07]
- Defining Combustibility [9:13]
- Innovation in Curtain Wall Materials [13:38]
- National Building Code of Canada (NBC) 2020 [16:40]
- Harmonization of Fire Standards Around The Corner? [18:03]
- How Different Are Canadian and US Standards? [20:52]
- Wrapping up: The Future of North American Fire Safety [26:00]
PETER: All right, so, Tony, thank you very much for joining us today. Today is episode 7 of Curtain Wall Conversations and we’re very fortunate to be joined by Tony Crimi. Tony serves as the chair-this will be long so be patient with me, Tony you’re you’re a busy guy. Tony serves as the chair of the National Building Code of Canada Standing Committee on Fire Protection and the Ontario Building Code Conservation Advisory Council as well as serving as a distinguished member of the International Code Council (ICC), National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), and much more for which his contributions have garnered him several notable awards.
And if that weren’t enough Tony is also the President of A.C. Consulting Solutions Inc. where he assists companies in navigating the regulatory landscape; he specializes in providing services related to building and fire protection codes and standards, including assisting clients and achieving successful testing and product approval and recognition from regulatory authorities, advocating for U.S code and standard changes, researching product and regulatory information, and facilitating product testing and evaluation.
It’s been a privilege for all of us on the GlasCurtain team to work with Tony over the last couple of years on the NFPA 285 certification, in particular for our new Thermaframe fibreglass-framed curtain wall system which we successfully completed in September 2022 and which opens the door for Thermaframe to be used on non-combustible buildings in the U.S market. That was long, so thank you for bearing with us. Tony, welcome to Curtain Wall Conversations.
TONY: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here and yes it was a long introduction, I think that says I’m getting old.
PETER: Well, that’s a life well lived, a life well lived.
BACKGROUND AND CAREER TRAJECTORY
PETER: So, let’s start with a little bit of background Tony. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about, you know, how you started and how you became interested, in particular, in codes and standard development?
TONY: It’s interesting, you know, like most things, I guess these things have sort of evolved organically. I graduated- I had got my master’s degree from the University of Toronto many years ago. And my first job was at Underwriters Laboratories of Canada; of course, ULC being a certification body, a testing body, but also standards development organization, gave me a little bit of the opportunity to get a sense of what that meant. As I started there and started to be one of the users of the standards and trying to conduct the testing and interpret what the requirements were, I realized that number one, it can be challenging and secondly, that particularly as new technologies evolved there was a need and an opportunity to do something creative. I’ve always had an interest in research and development, in business development, and so, surprisingly, maybe even to my surprise, sort of, the codes and standards world actually integrates quite well with that, both in terms of providing limitations but also opportunities so that’s kind of where where I started.
REFLECTIONS ON CODES AND STANDARDS DEVELOPMENTS
PETER: On your journey, you’ve chaired various advisory councils related to building and fire protection codes and standards. In your, sort of, career.. what do you feel, looking back a little bit, you know, of course also looking forward.. what do you feel so far at least have been some of the most significant changes or improvements that you’ve been involved in implementing?
TONY: Well, it’s interesting because there have been a lot of different things and over the years in many cases they’re kind of incremental. I think if we kind of look at the areas that you’re involved with particularly; in the early days when I got involved
with the National Building Code, for example, the current test that we use S134 didn’t exist.
PETER: Sorry, what was the the history? For what year would that have been? When was S134 implemented? It kind of just seems so normal now, it seems like such a sort of fixed part of the landscape but of course it wasn’t always so.
TONY: In fact, back in the early 1990s, and I believe it was the 1990 edition of the code or it might have been the 95′ edition, NRC had conducted the research on development of S134, it was discussed but there was no standard at that time. So, the test method in, I think it was the 1990 or 1995 code, was written into the code more or less over several pages. Once there was an
agreement that that was a method that we wanted to pursue nationally, we started an activity at ULC to develop the s134 standard and ultimately shorten the code a little bit by adding the reference but also the maintenance. Obviously with standards, you know, that’s what the other feature is.
Peter: The timing of when that was being implemented, what were some of the motivating forces? What were some of the
rationales, the logics of the moment if we, you know, rewind 30, 35 years to that that time?
TONY: A couple of things where the market had started to shift. One was the introduction of foam plastics and exterior walls and, particularly at that time, it was EIFS systems and it- really just beginning to evolve into the marketplace. Concurrent with that there had been a fire in a parking garage in Winnipeg, Manitoba, where the building had been clad with EIFS systems at that time. There had been a fire an underground parking garage… NRC had been involved also in an investigation as to what the cause of the fire was, what caused the fire to grow. Now, obviously, it was a parking garage underneath the building so the significant fuel source and so that kind of identified, at least in Canada, the need to do a better job of adding requirements and performance levels, expectations for the evolving technologies…
PETER: interesting, yeah, I mean, that’s somewhat reminiscent of, sadly, Grenfell in London, what was that five, seven years ago now? And, you know, my understanding was that there wasn’t such a code in the UK; and, I don’t know if this is, kind of, a severe enough event to precipitate those kind of code changes…but I didn’t know that part of history actually, that a Winnipeg parking garage fire was, you know, the kind of Canadian equivalent, you know, 30-40 years ago.
TONY: The UK and a lot of Europe depends more much more so on performance-based requirements. They really always- well, for a long time, gravitated away from prescriptive requirements towards performance requirements. The challenge with that is you can also go too far; if you look at their building regulation it’s essentially one sentence that says, you know, you have to construct the exterior cladding so that it doesn’t burn up the building. Now, having said that, that’s the regulation, they do
have quite extensive guidance documents that give you a lot of information on how to achieve that. They’re not mandatory documents.
PETER: They’re not enforceable?
Tony: Correct. And, so, the design community, the construction community, has a lot of flexibility in terms of how they actually determine and decide that something meets the performance requirements of the code. In Canada, when we had those conversations about performance-based codes, as you know we ultimately went to objective-based codes
PETER: Just happen to come back from Europe; for people who, you know, whether they’ve been to Europe or just love Europe and the idea of it- look at images online- you know, just to play Devil’s Advocate, is that why European buildings are more attractive? Is that why they’re more beautiful? Do they have more design flexibility and less prescriptive, objective “regulation”?
TONY: It may well be. it provides a greater level of flexibility. The challenge is, it relies very heavily on knowledge, experience, data, availability of data… Usually, what gets reported and published are the successful tests. What doesn’t get reported or published are the unsuccessful tests, and there’s a good sized pile of those.
PETER: We actually attempted CAN/ULC-S134, it probably would have been in 2010 or 2011, probably 2010 actually — that was when Underwriters Laboratories still had a facility outside of Ottawa, NRC, pardon me, still had a facility outside of Ottawa for
that test, before Intertek, you know, sort of ran away with the monopoly for the continent — And, we were unsuccessful in that test; and, it took you know, almost seven years for us to, frankly, get the funding to do it again. And, it turns out the reason we failed it the first time was that, you know, never having done this test before, there was a small gap between where the assembly was and where the fire started, and that little air gap allowed the fire to, sort of, get in behind the assembly where it’s not supposed to get, right? The fire is not supposed to test the inside of the facade, it’s supposed to test the outside of the facade. We didn’t know and, of course, NRC and UL and, you know, the testing authority can’t tell you that while you’re setting up, and
we didn’t have a Tony Crimi, you know, to help, you know, point to this and say, “Hey Pete, hey you guys, maybe should you know just move this.” And, so, when we retested in 2017, 2018, you know, all we did was we changed it, moved it an inch and we passed. Because the system itself, we know has absolutely the capability to pass the test if you install it correctly…and, you know, that’s a good object lesson in the field in general, right? You know, that you can you can design the best curtain wall system, you can design the best…whatever… product in the world — if it’s installed poorly it’s not going to perform very well.
TONY: And you learned a lot even just from that experience. There’s a lot learned- a lot more learned, actually, in many cases, from the unsuccessful ones.
PETER: The saying, I don’t remember where I first heard it, but it’s that you either win or you learn
TONY: Yes, right.
PETER: It’s like, those failures are are educational.
PETER: Exterior flame spread test versus, you know, other understandings of, you know, “combustibility.” How do you define combustibility?
TONY: So, this is an interesting question for a lot of reasons and partly it’s because of the market perception versus the code requirement. Combustibility and non-combustibility are the two sort of yin and yang of this conversation, right? It’s easier to focus, in terms of explaining this, on the non-combustion so then let’s ask the question the other way: what would be non-compulsive? what’s non-combustible? One thing people seem to misinterpret is that non-combustibility is a property that we measure in a very specific way. You can’t make, for example, a plastic material non-combustible by adding any flame retardants or by adding fillers, that’s not the way non-combustibility is defined.
Non-combustibility is defined, literally defined in the Canadian codes, by reference to a test method which is CAN/ULC-S114, that is a one and a half inch by one and a half inch by one inch cube that we immerse in the middle of a of a tubular furnace at 750 degrees and we measure temperature rise at a very stringent level (35 degrees is the maximum), we measure weight loss, and we look for flaming. That is the primary way of defining something that as non-combustible. Your earlier question was what are the other things that I’ve been involved in in code development, and one of them was providing or developing,- actually, chairing a task group to develop an alternative to that method which is based on the Cone Calorimeter test, it’s CAN/ULC-S135, and you’ll notice in the code that it provides you another option for establishing non-combustibility of, not just materials in this case, but potentially laminates and systems. One of the drawbacks, the condition of non-combustibility test, which is very similar to what’s used in the US, is that first of all for homogeneous, virtually homogeneous materials; you can’t do layered products or anything of that nature with it, and it’s also a pass/fail. It’s either it is or it isn’t, which is also potentially problematic because, you know, as I say, a lot of times in presentations, there’s no distinction between something that, you know, exceeds the criteria by two degrees and jet fuel…they’re both in the same category, they’re both combustible by definition.
One of the things, I think, is important, is to understand too for the marketplace, that what things like flame retardants and fillers can do is reduce flame spread, and that’s sort of another whole category of performance. So, in buildings we start with a premise that buildings either are combustible or non-combustible, well, I should say, either combustible-construction or non-combustible-construction.. now, of course we’ve added EMT in this current edition of the code, being encapsulated mass timber, which is a really interesting and big shift forward to have a third type of construction in our code.. but traditionally it’s been combustible-construction or non-combustible-construction. And then, non-combustible construction essentially has a series of allowances for combustible materials based on things like reaction to fire, that being flame spread testing, and things of that nature, and then fire resistance which is another category, which is more based on, well, certainly based on assemblies but also looking at a separation of areas, whether it’s a floor or a wall or things of that nature, so, sort of, a hierarchy as we progress through the code.
PETER: S101 is one that we get asked about as well. Where does that fit in?
TONY: S101 is the standard for determining fire-resistance rating and similar to the standard that’s used in the US, ASTM
E119 and UL 263, similar to the standard timed temperature curve that’s used internationally, ISO-834 and various others, you know, individual countries have different designations but the basic way exposure is similar different designations but the basic fire exposure is similar, not quite identical but similar, in all of those test standards. It’s kind of the grandfather of all of the fire resistance related test methods, so that’s time-based, that’s a different thing, it’s separating one area of a building from another you’re looking at things like temperature rise, structural performance, the ability to sustain a load, in flaming, of course, collapse, things of that nature.
INNOVATION IN CURTAIN WALL MATERIALS
PETER: I’m just trying to think, in terms of, you know, different kinds of materials for curtain wall and how those were originally perceived. You know, like aluminum versus steel framed curtain walls have been around, you know, for 50, 70 years, you know, leaving the fibreglass, you know, the newer innovations to the side… what was, sort of, the logic of their categorization?
TONY: That’s one of the other interesting things that I’ve been involved in with code development over the years that has happened. You have to appreciate that in standing committee on fire protection whether it’s provincial, national, but the concept of cladding from a fire protection point of view and as you can see, if you look at the S134 standard it looks- it defines, if you will, cladding as everything from the outside of the interior wall; from the back of the interior wall out, so, in other words it’s that whole assembly, that system starting from the interior drywall working your way out. If you look at at other parts of the code from a building-science perspective, cladding is the part that keeps the water out, the moisture away, etc., So, in the early days when we talked about cladding, we really weren’t understanding that cladding was more than the exterior face, so those things like steel and aluminum performed well in and of themselves in the testing that we were doing or in just an interpretation. Of course, steel being non-combustible. Aluminum, there’s a bit of an allowance for because it’s melting temperature- I mentioned the 750 degrees Celsius criteria for known combustibility- well, of course, aluminum melts at a lower temperature than that so there’s a little bit of an allowance for aluminum.
PETER: What is the temperature for aluminum off the top of your head?
TONY: I believe it’s around 650. Between 650 and 700 Celsius
TONY: So, you know it’s just a problem with the test which, you can’t actually do it because you’ll fail on weight loss, not because it’s burning because it’s melting out. Now, one of the important changes that I advocated for, for long time, and it actually took me a long time to somehow convey that we had a problem in using the word cladding because under part five (being building performance) cladding is perceived, as I said, about the part that keeps the rain out of the window but under part three it meant something very different so we- 3155 is the clause in the NBC, that s-134 is referenced in for combustible cladding. I believe it was the 2015 edition when we finally added 3156, which is for combustible components in an exterior wall; in other words, the stuff behind the cladding, and it loops you back to through 3155. So, in other words, we now understand, without controversy, if you will, if you’re using some kind of combustible components behind the outermost layer, it still needs to be tested.
NATIONAL BUILDING CODE OF CANADA (NBC) 2020
PETER: Is it the 2020 National Building Code there are now, you know, allowances for combustible sashes, window frames, as long as there’s, you know, certain separation, so, you know, curtain wall could be used in this application but it’s more of a strip window application. My understanding is that the recent testing that was done by NRC and a few, you know, sort of Canadian window manufacturers has made it so that it demonstrated essentially equivalency in terms of exterior flame spread or in terms
of S134 between fibreglass and aluminum. Is that change going to open the door to other kinds of changes in the future? What What are the implications of some of that?
TONY: That’s a good example of understanding and appreciating that our code is objective-based. That’s the advantage of it being objective-based, as much as it’s difficult to use for most people – and, in fact not widely used because it’s difficult to use and enforce – from a code perspective a standing committee or committee can look at the objectives.. what was it trying to achieve? Look at the methods that we have available that we were satisfied have been achieving it and provide a pathway for something new and innovative to be able to be introduced, if it has the data to support. I think that pretty much is the path that that particular requirement followed in order to be justified.
HARMONIZATION OF FIRE STANDARDS AROUND THE CORNER?
PETER: To the American side because that’s a market that we’re now more interested in and have now certified, obviously, NFPA 285 too. what do you see happening in the U.S market in that are the U.S sort of codes and standard side? And, is there
a future where we might see actually Canadian and American understandings of fire harmonized in the same way that we have for thermal performance or air and water tightness?
TONY: So, the U.S market, the U.S codes – let me say, the predominant code, of course being the international codes, series of codes, work on a different basis so, they’re not explicitly objective-based or performance-based, they’re still traditionally, you know, like division B of the NBC, they’re still traditionally prescriptive in nature. There are, obviously, performance elements like performance tests that you have to accomplish etc., but limitations and such are pretty much spelled out. In the case of exterior walls it’s actually, I think, quite reasonably well-evolved in terms of the path that you need, you know, what’s permitted and what isn’t, but it is more prescriptive. All codes like the Canadian code as well as the US codes, do have provision though; for the US it’s called, “Alternative Means and Methods,” here we call it “Alternative Solutions,” but there is a pathway for alternative means and methods… in other words something that can be demonstrated, on a performance basis, to meet the intent of the code and the performance objectives of the code, can be accepted. Whether it’s Alternative Means and Methods or Alternative Solutions, they’re generally project specific; they’re not generic, so, really, it’s sort of case-by-case that needs to be justified and, also, you know, the jury as to who’s going to accept the justifying changes in each case, so it’s not necessarily a simple path but it’s certainly available.
PETER: Do you see a future where we’re going going to have a Canadian system and an American System essentially?
TONY: You know, part of the issue with building codes – and you’re seeing it- actually, we’re seeing it a lot in the last I’ll say three to four years – is it’s also influenced by societal expectations. so if you’ll notice there’s been an- in fact in the current cycle we’re in there’s a tremendous push on things related to energy efficiency, climate change. The US is not, to the same extent in their codes, driving that. They’re maybe driving it elsewhere, not necessarily driving it to the same extent or in the same way. Government objectives are not necessarily aligned, so it is difficult if you think about codes as an instrument of policy it’s difficult to see them fully aligned.
HOW DIFFERENT ARE CANADIAN AND US STANDARDS?
PETER: Thank you, again, so much, for all of your help this last little while in opening the doors that we were looking to to walk
through, in the U.S market in particular. Sticking with the U.S market, NFPA 285, you know, ASTM E2307, how do those, sort of, translate to what we understand in Canada as either non-combustible or flame spread rating, how do we understand those in relation to what we’re used to in Canada?
TONY: You mentioned earlier that the NFPA 285 and the ULC-S134 tests are essentially tests that are measuring the propensity for flame to travel in or on an exterior wall, not behind my exterior wall.
PETER: Of course.
TONY: But in or on the surface and I say in- I mean, obviously, burning in the cavity can also be problematic depending as we saw with many examples around the world and so that is part of the criteria. E2307 is different in that what it’s assessing – and ASTM E2307, by the way, is the test for perimeter fire barrier systems, or now called in the US codes ‘perimeter fire containment system’ and basically that’s the joint between the floor slab and the exterior curtain wall or exterior wall and so it’s an assessment that’s a little bit different although the apparatus, its use is similar in the case of 285 it’s similar to the- it’s the same apparatus that you use in NFPA 285 but you’re measuring a different thing; you’re actually installing that joint between the floor slab and the curtain wall and assessing that and so the curtain wall system itself, the back pan, particularly, and in the US, a back pan is not very common, so the mullions, etc., that are part of that exterior curtain wall system all become part of that
E2307 tested and listed, if you’re certifying, I will point out that in the 2020 code for the first time in Canada, well let me back up one step… in 2018, in the 2018 edition of the standard that we use for fire stop systems and joints in Canada, which is ULC-S115, E2307 was incorporated into that for those unique perimeter joints because of a timing issue S115 wasn’t published at the
time when we needed it – the 2018 edition – so E2307 is in the 2020 National Building Code as a standard for perimeter joints, so it is a requirement going forward.
PETER: Is that kind of on a project by project basis or is that just, you know, one system is required to have that test
TONY: If you’ve got a gap between that, you know, that slab and that exterior curtain wall, you’re going to need to comply with, depending on the size of the building of course, you’re going to to need to comply to E2307. Now, there are, I’ll say more than 100 systems that are already published and available for a variety of different kinds of systems, so there’s hopefully a good
selection of options but if not then some things may need to be tested.
PETER:You mentioned spandrel panels there, just wanted to sort of jump off that point into how they’re much more common in Canada, you know, that’s a big part of, you know, what makes, I think, testing, you know, our curtain walls, our fibreglass-framed curtain walls kind of different than what these tests were originally designed for, right? Because these tests are originally designed for uniform assemblies and, of course, in, you know, in most curtain walls that we install they’re non-uniform assemblies. You know, what does that interpretation look like, I guess, in terms of you know, whether it’s at the at the regulatory level or at the certification level or at the architects level, you know, what sort of understanding is there from, “Okay, so we tested this one thing,” thing but of course you can’t build that, right? And that’s not what you’d want to build and that’s not what you should build but we’re still saying that they’re equivalent from a fire safety perspective. What does that look like?
TONY: If you talk about each one, ASTM E2307, the perimeter joint, specifically, there are a couple of organizations, so, first of all, most manufacturers in the U.S – and I’m almost reluctant to use the term, and I know they’re trying to get away from it – they will look at particular instances if you ask them to and provide what they commonly call an ‘engineering judgment’ so they will sort of do an assessment based on their knowledge and experience of successes and failures and give, in most cases, some assurance of whether a system will or won’t meet the intent or requirements of the particular standard. There’s an organization that I’m also involved with in the US, it’s the International Fire Stop Council, that actually publishes guidelines for engineering judgments or fire stop systems and for perimeter fire barrier systems and there are also two standards at ASTM for installation
and inspection of those kinds of systems so it’s a good system in terms of its, sort of, evolution. It’s a mature system now.
WRAPPING UP: THE FUTURE FOR NORTH AMERICAN FIRE SAFETY
PETER: To, sort of, wrap things up for today, it’s been a very enjoyable conversation thus far. Looking forward, maybe…you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, maybe the US and Canada won’t, you know, don’t have a future for harmonizing; in the windows and the conversations that you’re having, obviously, you know, the kinds of conversation you’re having … by the time those get to industry or to market, there’s five years, ten years, plus, plus, plus… what are you seeing right now that makes you optimistic for the future of fire safety and environmental protection in North America?
TONY: You know, at the same time that turning the codes into more of a quality document may have a negative side, it’s also had a positive sign which is, you know, a rarity in Canada, where we’ve had investment in the ability to pursue the R&D and to have the staff at, you know, National Research Council, for example, in the code section, actually available to be able to do the work that’s required to get those things out much more quickly than we have in the past. The other sort of point of optimism, I think, if we can pull it off, is that all of the provinces and the federal government of course have signed the Memorandum of Understanding to harmonize to the National code. The original idea was to do that by 2023, I don’t think we’re going to hit that target and I have had a little bit of involvement with the activity, but that commitment is there and if we can do that then, I think, that’s a big step forward to at least use the resources we have to pull in the same direction.
PETER: It would be great to see because, I mean, there’s such a lag there. There’s such a lag between that national publishing of a document and the provincial adoption of it and, you know, we’ve seen here in Alberta so many times especially, the energy code, right? The can just kept getting kicked down the road because there’s so much, you know, pushback from, you know, industry and mostly and not on the manufacturing side necessarily but, you know, developers and, you know, these kind of things. It would be great to see that, kind of, adopted so, well, whether it’s 2023 or 2025, that would be fantastic to see for sure.
TONY: I think that, in general, the code development system will also be/is undergoing and will continue to undergo, kind of, an evolution; I think a recognition of the fact that it is too slow and does need to react more quickly. I will say the U.S system one of the advantages is a defined cycle, it’s basically a three-year cycle, and at the end of the three years the slate is wiped clean and if you’re still interested in pursuing something that didn’t go your way you resubmit it. Here, we have tended to just, kind of, keep things in a pile and never throw anything away and, so, I think, that’s also caused a bit of a large drain on the system over the years and, so, I can see our own systems evolving to be a little bit more responsive in that regard.
PETER: Well, that’s good news, I’m sure to our ears and to many of our listeners as well. We really appreciate your time today, Tony, for Curtain Wall Conversations episode 7; I look forward to seeing what comes next, thanks very much for joining us!
TONY: Thank you, take care.
PETER: All right we hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did. Be sure to follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook to stay up to date on new episodes of this series. Also, be sure to check out our Spotify and Apple Podcast accounts where this episode and others are now available. If you have any questions about our conversation today or fibreglass-framed curtain walls in general, feel free to reach out to us via email at email@example.com. You can also subscribe to our blog for all the latest updates which we’ll link to in the description below. Thanks very much, we’ll see you next time!